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View Full Version : Does a 20-year age gap between bf-gf matter?


billgates
22-09-2010, 01:25 AM
I would like to know, for all those guys whose gf's are at least 20 years younger, what is your experience like? Is there a communication gap, difference in thinking, etc?

Thanks for sharing.

RealEstateGuy
22-09-2010, 03:09 AM
Brother, it can work but your maturity levels and life outlook must converge. Is she as mature as you or you are as immature as she? Is this Viet? Thai? PRC? Brother, then you hae a case of cultural differences which need to be reconciled. Income and education basically current and future earnings power also play a role brother. List the facts and data an circumstances under which you met you honey below and we can analyze the situation for you brother.

argus
22-09-2010, 12:54 PM
IMHO and IMPE not at all.

I am 42 and my wife (former gf, of cos) is 19...

RealEstateGuy
22-09-2010, 01:48 PM
IMHO and IMPE not at all.

I am 42 and my wife (former gf, of cos) is 19...

Are these sexual relations only or do you have meaningful discussions/activities that you both mutually enjoy and stimulate each other mentally with? I mean brother, do you engage in discussions about topics such as world events, real estate, politics, philosophy, etc.

If we add +20 and shift into the future, what are your mutual expectations when your are 62 and she is 39? Is the sex better or worse and is that the foundation you expect going forward? This assumes the current foundation if based on mostly sex and in exchange you provider her a certain lifestyle?

Post your responses, and brother we will further analyze.

sammyboyfor
22-09-2010, 02:01 PM
I would like to know, for all those guys whose gf's are at least 20 years younger, what is your experience like? Is there a communication gap, difference in thinking, etc?

Thanks for sharing.

The age gap is an issue for some but not for others. :rolleyes:

argus
22-09-2010, 03:11 PM
The age gap is an issue for some but not for others. :rolleyes:

Well spoken... but the "others" are those involved in such relationships, while the "some" are those that are not.

I do know of "some" becoming "others". :rolleyes:

billgates
22-09-2010, 05:13 PM
Actually that's my main concern. Some day I will be 60 with one foot in the grave. While she will be in her late 30s and possibly still an attractive woman. Will I be given the "green hat" to wear? :(

If we add +20 and shift into the future, what are your mutual expectations when your are 62 and she is 39? Is the sex better or worse and is that the foundation you expect going forward? This assumes the current foundation if based on mostly sex and in exchange you provider her a certain lifestyle?



No offense. But there's a Chinese saying, "that's like having said something and yet nothing has been said at all." :p

The age gap is an issue for some but not for others. :rolleyes:

Sweetprcbabes2
22-09-2010, 05:26 PM
Actually that's my main concern. Some day I will be 60 with one foot in the grave. While she will be in her late 30s and possibly still an attractive woman. Will I be given the "green hat" to wear? :(

If you are 6 foot under, she is attractive, shouldn't you hope she moves on ?

joew2005
22-09-2010, 05:38 PM
Quotes fr Forest Gump

- mama always said dying was a part of life

- I m not a smart man but I knw wat love is

- mama always said life was like a box of chocolates, u nvr know wat u gonna get

- sometimes I guess there is just not enough rocks

- when I m tired I slept, when I m hungry I eat & when I had 2 go u knw I went

- tat's all I hv 2 say about tat

- mama always said you hv got 2 put the past behind you b4 you k move on

- nw we ain't strangers anymore

- I don't knw if we each hv a destiny or if we r all just floating around accidental like on a breeze. But I think maybe it's both

etc .....

dirtyhairy
22-09-2010, 05:43 PM
There's also an ancient Chinese saying about a man's love being strong
while a woman's love being long
put both of them together, and you will have perfect bond
But why bother, yo Bro Gates first named Bill
Just remember the wise words from that famous Bard also called Bill
Because when things dont work out,
Just proceed to console yourself by crying out loud
It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all!

argus
23-09-2010, 05:50 AM
Are these sexual relations only or do you have meaningful discussions/activities that you both mutually enjoy and stimulate each other mentally with? I mean brother, do you engage in discussions about topics such as world events, real estate, politics, philosophy, etc.

If we add +20 and shift into the future, what are your mutual expectations when your are 62 and she is 39? Is the sex better or worse and is that the foundation you expect going forward? This assumes the current foundation if based on mostly sex and in exchange you provider her a certain lifestyle?

Post your responses, and brother we will further analyze.

Of course sex is good... :D

But we do discuss real world matters. She's a graduate (Harvard) and has a 3.85 GPA, and works for her dad, who owns a NY Listed MNC. And YES, she's not from the 'usual' 'regional sources'.

Nevertheless, if she's with me for the $$, I doubt it. Although I have more $$, she does have her own $$. Further, she insisted and we signed a pre-nup.

But then, even if things change in the future, what doesn't? Just as The NOOSE said, the No. 1 cause of divorce is marriage. Whilst it's funny, it is nevertheless true.

RealEstateGuy
23-09-2010, 09:06 AM
Of course sex is good... :D

But we do discuss real world matters. She's a graduate (Harvard) and has a 3.85 GPA, and works for her dad, who owns a NY Listed MNC. And YES, she's not from the 'usual' 'regional sources'.

Nevertheless, if she's with me for the $$, I doubt it. Although I have more $$, she does have her own $$. Further, she insisted and we signed a pre-nup.

But then, even if things change in the future, what doesn't? Just as The NOOSE said, the No. 1 cause of divorce is marriage. Whilst it's funny, it is nevertheless true.

Brother, and what kind of sheepskin do you have? I'm analyzing your compatibility.
Also, you state her dad owns a listed MNC. BTW shareholders own it. Is the the majority shareholder? Or you took the bait?
Why does a smart Harvard graduate who can meet men from school of similar caliber see in a man 2x her age? I'm not discounting your standing in SG society but have you asked yourself? Is your performance in bed that good to her? Be humble and realistic in your response.
Then we will analyze your situation some more.

IdontKnow
23-09-2010, 11:24 PM
Of course sex is good... :D

But we do discuss real world matters. She's a graduate (Harvard) and has a 3.85 GPA, and works for her dad, who owns a NY Listed MNC. And YES, she's not from the 'usual' 'regional sources'.

Nevertheless, if she's with me for the $$, I doubt it. Although I have more $$, she does have her own $$. Further, she insisted and we signed a pre-nup.

But then, even if things change in the future, what doesn't? Just as The NOOSE said, the No. 1 cause of divorce is marriage. Whilst it's funny, it is nevertheless true.

YOU SHOULD START TO WAKE UP FROM YOUR DREAMLAND:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ichigo_Kurosaki
24-09-2010, 11:48 AM
.....She's a graduate (Harvard) and has a 3.85 GPA, and works for her dad, who owns a NY Listed MNC. And YES, she's not from the 'usual' 'regional sources'..

Havelock or Harvard?

Havelock University also has got pretty much excellent grades, straight A's with a B once in a while but mostly C or C+

:confused::eek::rolleyes:

Btw, as a matter of fact, Bill Gates was a dropout from Harvard but he received an honorary degree from the university in 2007

adventco
24-09-2010, 12:09 PM
no it does not matter. I actually have a gf (thai) and she is half my age. she just turned 22 and we celebrated her bday in macau.

K9696
25-09-2010, 08:11 AM
I would like to know, for all those guys whose gf's are at least 20 years younger, what is your experience like? Is there a communication gap, difference in thinking, etc?

Thanks for sharing.

I like your agenda, let me share w u my situation of a girl that I know for 9months, still considered good and close friend, potentially can become my partner..

1) Me - 44, she - 25, about 20yrs different..
2) Me - Sin, She - PRC, working as a Sales, used to own a restaurant but closed due to poor biz..
3) she living her own, so is very independent and mature.:D

a) Communication gap - to certain extend, me born in the 60's, she is in the 80's - she can not take too much of lecture but can accept opinions.

b) Different thinking - Yes, certainly, she said she wanted to own a car due to geographical situation, so when she insists, she will do it without any 2nd opinion.:(

Anyway, just share about my situation, different pple can have different situation, more importance is your acceptance of herself and learing how to give and take in every situation you encounter to make good of the differences.:)

RealEstateGuy
25-09-2010, 10:07 AM
I like your agenda, let me share w u my situation of a girl that I know for 9months, still considered good and close friend, potentially can become my partner..

1) Me - 44, she - 25, about 20yrs different..
2) Me - Sin, She - PRC, working as a Sales, used to own a restaurant but closed due to poor biz..
3) she living her own, so is very independent and mature.:D

a) Communication gap - to certain extend, me born in the 60's, she is in the 80's - she can not take too much of lecture but can accept opinions.

b) Different thinking - Yes, certainly, she said she wanted to own a car due to geographical situation, so when she insists, she will do it without any 2nd opinion.:(

Anyway, just share about my situation, different pple can have different situation, more importance is your acceptance of herself and learing how to give and take in every situation you encounter to make good of the differences.:)

Brother, you must be really good in bed and/or the upper echelon in SG society. Not sure what she see in you no offense brother. BTW, 25 year old owning own business? Source of capital is you? What is her occupation? Selling what?

billgates
25-09-2010, 11:53 AM
Have to be careful that she is not with u for financial benefits. I have actually come across many gals before who are willing to be my gfs just because of that. It has been a long search, but i think i finally found a younger gal who is with me NOT for the money (i hope... keeping fingers crossed). :p

I like your agenda, let me share w u my situation of a girl that I know for 9months, still considered good and close friend, potentially can become my partner....

Ichigo_Kurosaki
25-09-2010, 12:15 PM
.....

.....different pple can have different situation, more importance is your acceptance of herself and learing how to give and take in every situation you encounter to make good of the differences.:)

Bro K9696, thanks for sharing. I agreed to above.

思想不一样. 玩的也不一样. 说话方式不一样. 行为举止不一样. 讨论的话题不一样, 思维不一样, 理念不一样, 价值观不一样, 处的时代不同, 经历不同, 生活背景不同, 想法必然不同.” :) 所为的的代沟是指没有共同的话题! 所以叫代沟!, 因为立场`接触面 . 思维方式.....这是必然的`! IMHO, 本人还是觉得不算代沟!! 成长经历不同, 所以影响世界观..... 如果我们能多关注下,学着慢慢的去理解,把认为的"代沟"给填平! 我想这个关系会很和睦的!, 使彼此之间的感情变的很牢固, 不会再出现“缝隙”“代沟, 只要都学会适当的去理解和宽容,我们会发现, 其实我们没有代沟! ;) 虽然不是同龄人, 但是还可以有很多共同语言和共同喜爱的干法和湿法. :p

Ichigo_Kurosaki
25-09-2010, 12:42 PM
Brother, you must be really good in bed and/or the upper echelon in SG society. Not sure what she see in you no offense brother......

Bro RealEstateGuy, ano......betsu ni....not really, you don't need to be in the upper echelon of society, these type of relationship is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from your High Class Maid who works for the upper echelon SG society owners. :D

As what Bro K9696 said :

.....different pple can have different situation, more importance is your acceptance of herself and learing how to give and take in every situation you encounter to make good of the differences.:)

As I do not know how you communicate with those Kinokuniya's High Class maids, but all you need is to learn how to be heard and understand certain female communication traits. You will be able to bridge the gap regardless of who and what you are :D


BTW, I will visit Kinokuniya bookstore to look-see look-see on these high class maids on Sunday..Hope to bump into you.

ekemono
25-09-2010, 02:04 PM
BTW, I will visit Kinokuniya bookstore to look-see look-see on these high class maids on Sunday..Hope to bump into you.

How to identify high class maids?
Is it see whether they buy the hardcover version instead of the paperback version?
:D

joew2005
25-09-2010, 02:31 PM
so RealEstateGuy,hw WAS yr performance in bed ?
r u also fr the upper echelon of tis society as well ?
no offence as well .....

Ichigo_Kurosaki
25-09-2010, 03:54 PM
How to identify high class maids?
Is it see whether they buy the hardcover version instead of the paperback version?
:D

According to Bro REG, "high class" maid is defined as below:

http://www.sammyboyforum.com/showthread.php?p=5207288#post5207288

.....This mad works for the upper echelon of SG societyWas met her at the bookstore reading a Western bestseller. She said she only play with smart men like me. Quite the horny woman looking for no strings non commerical good time from a man that knows how and can please her and vice versa. I can tell you the sex was intense -- was hot. Lots of noises, sweat and fluids brother.

Hmmm...Now that we on best sellers - I wonder was she reading Kinokuniya's best sellers: The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo by Stieg Larsson or The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown :D (Read only but Not buying)

Good for Bro REG to mate with the maids cos they be more productive during normal maiding hours...Think I will encourage my maids to go this bookstore cos got fast food to relieve stress..WOnder any age limit? My maids average about 40-50s of age and badly in deed of services by a young STUD :D

RealEstateGuy
25-09-2010, 04:25 PM
Brother, for the past few weeks have been checking into a five star hotel with the high class maid. She said she only want to be in luxury hotel. This woman is quite horny with insatiable appetite for sex.

K9696
25-09-2010, 07:19 PM
bro k9696, thanks for sharing. I agreed to above.

思想不一样. 玩的也不一样. 说话方式不一样. 行为举止不一样. 讨论的话题不一样, 思维不一样, 理念不一样, 价值观不一样, 处的时代不同, 经历不同, 生活背景不同, 想法必然不同.” :) 所为的的代沟是指没有共同的话题! 所以叫代沟!, 因为立场`接触面 . 思维方式.....这是必然的`! Imho, 本人还是觉得不算代沟!! 成长经历不同, 所以影响世界观..... 如果我们能多关注下,学着慢慢的去理解,把认为的"代沟"给填平! 我想这个关系会很和睦的!, 使彼此之间的感情变的很牢固, 不会再出现“缝隙”“代沟, 只要都学会适当的去理解和宽容,我们会发现, 其实我们没有代沟! ;) 虽然不是同龄人, 但是还可以有很多共同语言和共同喜爱的干法和湿法. :p

兄弟.. 我挺你.. 我对你的看法一致.. 和你聊天..大快人心.. 酒逢知己千杯少...;)

K9696
25-09-2010, 07:21 PM
Brother, you must be really good in bed and/or the upper echelon in SG society. Not sure what she see in you no offense brother. BTW, 25 year old owning own business? Source of capital is you? What is her occupation? Selling what?

bro. I am neither good in bed or upper echelon in SG society,, I am nobody, just a wonder kid hiding one corner behind the screen starts to sweet talk the lady in mainland..;)

Cerberus
25-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Don't think too much into the future.....
Enjoy the present.

Even if the age gap is 5 years, both same educational level, good family background, same religion,.....etc.

Does this means infidelity and divorce won't occur?

Ichigo_Kurosaki
26-09-2010, 05:03 AM
Brother, for the past few weeks have been checking into a five star hotel with the high class maid. She said she only want to be in luxury hotel. This woman is quite horny with insatiable appetite for sex.

I see.
She has never been to a luxury hotel before.
So any maid who want only to go luxury is a high class maid whilst a maid who want sex at home is called a house-maid , a maid who does sex in a car is a car-maid , a maid who does sex with a bangala is called a banga-maid, and a person who bring a maid to a luxury hotel is called a "Check-Mate" :D:p I got it now. Thanks bro for the clarification. Insightful indeed :)

Black_Hawk_Up
26-09-2010, 01:00 PM
I see.
She has never been to a luxury hotel before.
So any maid who want only to go luxury is a high class maid whilst a maid who want sex at home is called a house-maid , a maid who does sex in a car is a car-maid , a maid who does sex with a bangala is called a banga-maid, and a person who bring a maid to a luxury hotel is called a "Check-Mate" :D:p I got it now. Thanks bro for the clarification. Insightful indeed :)

:Dthat a good one...

katana blader
29-09-2010, 05:10 PM
Age should never be an issue if true love exist. :)

My-Melody
22-10-2010, 02:58 AM
Age should never be an issue if true love exist. :)

I met a guy whom I'm really comfortable with and I like him alot. Sadly, he seems to mind the age gap alot.

jon2000sg
22-10-2010, 08:38 AM
juz look at Marcus Chin (Chen Jian Bing)

isn't him a happy?

old cow eating young soft grass ???

http://172.31.254.244/showbiz.omy.sg/OMYMEDIA/image/Showbiz/ENews/200905/20090526_zt_marcus_AM.jpg


http://forums.cozycot.com/url/aHR0cDovL3Nob3diaXoub215LnNnL1Nob3diaXovRS1OZXdzL1 N0b3J5L09NWVN0b3J5MjAwOTA1MjYxNTA2LTYzNzI1Lmh0bWw=

ebro
22-10-2010, 12:33 PM
Of course sex is good... :D

But then, even if things change in the future, what doesn't? Just as The NOOSE said, the No. 1 cause of divorce is marriage. Whilst it's funny, it is nevertheless true.

Bro fully enjoy your life with her now, dont worry abt future as whatever will happen it will happen but just fully enjoy now :D

Thanks for sharing :cool:

Peggie83
22-10-2010, 02:32 PM
I had a guy friend who is 34 yrs old this year & his PRC gf is 20 yrs old.

14 years age gap is not a problem for them :)

jon2000sg
22-10-2010, 03:52 PM
I had a guy friend who is 34 yrs old this year & his PRC gf is 20 yrs old.

14 years age gap is not a problem for them :)

i was in love with 2 PRC girls before

both about 15 years my junior

jacky43
22-10-2010, 03:57 PM
I guess after period of time they get used to each other, sort of like after 30yrs as a regular in the army forces. The brain all green, daily routines boring stuffs.

It depends, some live happy ever after others go seperate ways. Human relationship is 1 w/o SOP never fixed.

justl00king
22-10-2010, 05:27 PM
Only 2 things will cover the gap, true love or money. :p

verygood
22-10-2010, 10:11 PM
i was in love with 2 PRC girls before

both about 15 years my junior

But to SG girls can you cover that gap ??

Somewhat $$ and some feelings there, both accounts :p

utd4ever59
22-10-2010, 10:36 PM
20 Yrs gap is too big . When you hit 40 , your husband will be 60. That is the time when you will go stray and look for a younger cock. He simply will not be able to satisfy you with 2 shots a nite. Love can change and will change in time. It is how well you can adapt to it. You will feel totally unsatisfied with him during sex because it won't be as hard as you want from him.Just get over it and make a clean break.

OkoBoko
22-10-2010, 10:37 PM
the No. 1 cause of divorce is marriage. Whilst it's funny, it is nevertheless true.


I like that.......:rolleyes:

big wood
23-10-2010, 10:07 AM
Life is short if everything also want to think and consult next thing u realise that u has spend 3/4 of your life doing nothing just go with your feeling no pain no gain cheers

jon2000sg
23-10-2010, 01:59 PM
Life is short if everything also want to think and consult next thing u realise that u has spend 3/4 of your life doing nothing just go with your feeling no pain no gain cheers

go with your feeling
no pain no gain
cheers!
well said !

goodpartner
24-10-2010, 12:11 AM
Does a 20-year age gap between bf-gf matter?
Vague question...Matter to who?

It does not matter to the b and g for reason(s) only they know better.

It may only matter to the on-lookers but if it bothers either of them, they won't be together for long anyway, so it doesn't matter if it matter :rolleyes:

BTW, some men are just blessed with genes that make them look and feel younger than the age. As long as they keep fit and healthy, it's not uncommon to live a life that's 20 years younger than their peers. Also, if going by the norm that most women age (looks-wise) faster than their age, it'll even out. All my primary and secondary female school-mates looks like old aunties now...

Heck, it's so common to find men/women who looks at least 10 years older than their age! Also, am I the only one to observe that most ang-mo and even men from certain asian countries do look much older than a SG Society male (esp. in the upper echelon:D) of the same age?

My Thai GF thinks I'm 10 years younger than my age, and when I saw her male friends and relatives, I am not surprise why ;) :D

sillydilly
24-10-2010, 12:45 AM
i also have quite a gap in my rs, tho my age gap with bf not as big, he's about a decade older. nonetheless, we're considerably from rather different generations. early 70s vs early 80s.

there are def some differences in general outlook, but really... no diff from dating someone else from ur age grp with different thinking... what's most impt is if you can communicate with each other.

i think if both do want to start a family eventually, there are alot of things to consider. and it will help if the guy is financially sound and healthy and active. if both are just happy with one and other only, then there's no big deal about the age gap.

if it's just dating, and no long term plans yet. just go for it! one step at a time...

Lone_Wolf
24-10-2010, 01:38 AM
All my primary and secondary female school-mates looks like old aunties now...

Very true! Few months back I attended the wedding of a ex-classmate.
As another ex-classmate was staying near my home, she took a ride in my car to the wedding dinner. The banquet manager mistook her as my auntie when we arrived at the hotel. :D

Medusa
24-10-2010, 07:24 AM
i have a bf who is 10 years my junior....and i must admit it aint easy to handle at all...cos he's like a kid most of the time and im seriously feeling the stress

jon2000sg
24-10-2010, 08:38 AM
i have a bf who is 10 years my junior....and i must admit it aint easy to handle at all...cos he's like a kid most of the time and im seriously feeling the stress
wow! 10years ? you must be good ! :p

big wood
24-10-2010, 09:48 AM
whether u look young or old is not really very important your heart and mind must feel young and than u will start to see things more difference:p

aakumu2
24-10-2010, 10:00 AM
i have a bf who is 10 years my junior....and i must admit it aint easy to handle at all...cos he's like a kid most of the time and im seriously feeling the stress

Hi sis,
Women tends to be a bit more mature than man, plus being 10 years his senior would make you about 15 to 20 years gap..............right.


My humble two cents.

tamlv69
24-10-2010, 11:08 AM
The age gap seems to be fine if bf is 20 years older than gf, but probably not the other way around. Men don't age very much between 30 and 50 years old if one keep fit and healthy. I meet my ex-girlfriend (5 yrs older than me) on the street recently, she looks like OLD untie. Quite sad actually because she was a looker then.

Due to our less harsh life in Singapore, Singapore men tend to look much younger than our age :D. So 20 years younger gf just about right for us :p.

Medusa
24-10-2010, 07:17 PM
wow! 10years ? you must be good ! :p

hahaha... u mean good in which way?

sundance
24-10-2010, 08:23 PM
I've been with my gf for 2.5 years and we have a 24 year difference. It depends on the outlook in life and having common interests. So far, I have no problems here and we have a pretty good understand of what's important to each other. So I don't see much of an issue. :)

Peggie83
25-10-2010, 03:45 PM
i was in love with 2 PRC girls before

both about 15 years my junior

I don't think this will be an issue :)


Only 2 things will cover the gap, true love or money. :p

I agree on these 2 :D

sun814
25-10-2010, 04:22 PM
I've been with my gf for 2.5 years and we have a 24 year difference. It depends on the outlook in life and having common interests. So far, I have no problems here and we have a pretty good understand of what's important to each other. So I don't see much of an issue. :)

sorry, but did u consider marrying her? for me being bf-gf n being husband n wife are very different.

KinJioKar
25-10-2010, 07:37 PM
The age gap is an issue for some but not for others. :rolleyes:it is as good as telling chicken rice is nice but not how nice :S

sundance
26-10-2010, 01:19 AM
sorry, but did u consider marrying her? for me being bf-gf n being husband n wife are very different.

Yes, I plan on marrying her next year. The age difference is not a problem, but I think she is very mature for her age.:cool:

simple2kee
26-10-2010, 08:30 AM
i have a bf who is 10 years my junior....and i must admit it aint easy to handle at all...cos he's like a kid most of the time and im seriously feeling the stress

choose me coz im definitely >10 years ur senior. :D

TS, seriously a 20 year age gap is too wide but it works for some couples.

Register
01-11-2010, 11:43 PM
Well.... I guess LOVE is a very hard thing to understand and calculate......

There is a chinese saying 'If you don't start a relationship, how do you know it will turn out bad'?

A suggestion to TS and those that have big age difference. Ask your very good friends to give you advice, listen only, coz the choice still lies on yourself.

peanut123
02-11-2010, 01:52 AM
I would like to know, for all those guys whose gf's are at least 20 years younger, what is your experience like? Is there a communication gap, difference in thinking, etc?

Thanks for sharing.

I don't think it will be a problem. It really depends on the individual. Girls tend to be more mature than guys. There are some young girls who behave like kids, always on the hunt for trinkets and holidays. But there are also young women who are very mature and serious. I personally have several female friends who are easily 12 years or more younger than me, and we get along very well (better than women my age), and chat about anything under the sun for hours whenever we catch up over drinks. For some reason, some of my closest friends are young chicks. Maybe they like mature men ?

If I were you, I would go for it. Whats the worst that could happen ? That you get to bang a young pussy, fondle stretch-mark-free body and grope firm boobs ? My God, most of us here would pay good money for it, and you are wondering if you should go for it ? It's a no brainer.