The Asian Commercial Sex Scene  

Go Back   The Asian Commercial Sex Scene > For stuff you can't discuss with your Facebook Account > Matters of the Heart.

Notices

Matters of the Heart. Has a Commercial Fuck turned into a torrid Love Affair which has turned your life upside down? Fear not. We have experts here who can help you through your roller coaster ride. Tell us your story and we'll do our best to help.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #19516  
Old 06-05-2014, 03:23 PM
volcano's Avatar
volcano volcano is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Land of SYTs
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 3066 / Power: 16
volcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond reputevolcano has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
bro mariosuper, I also have similar experience with this ktv viet, i.e. on one hand they KC you, yet at the same time they have bigger fish to entertain, yet yet they still got the cheek to ask things from you. And they don't mind letting you know which are the other big catch they have ... what mindset is that

I will ask back her.. so what am I if you are already somebody else mistress or darling? ... what is the purpose of me to buy you expensive gift like burberry bag (wait long long)...

i always believe that not all WLs are bad n not trustworthy...

but what do u expect from a WL that is willing to spread legs to any guys for money.
  #19517  
Old 06-05-2014, 04:15 PM
Hurricane88's Avatar
Hurricane88 Hurricane88 is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: International Forum
Posts: 23,625
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 40175 / Power: 32
Hurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariosuper View Post
Overall i will consider her a pretty "innocent" and good girl as compare to other viet girl i encounter. She is in her late 20s (but a stunner that look like early 20), proclaim that she had never work in KTV before until her first visit to singapore (i check her passport before to verify she is above 18 so can confirm she is telling the truth also). Finally decide to work KTV to earn more money to help her dad who ruin into a debt due to car incident etc (might be a story, cannot verify).

*p/s: created a new account to share more intimate feeling and thought, please help to up my point for this account yea?
first of all thank you for writing your story...nothing special because so many similar cases discussed here in the past if you can search this thread...

quote naemlo "always think your gal is different from other WL..."...to me is no diff and she is never as innocent as she looks...look she is screwing others behind her bf who is feeding her $$$...

late 20's is no no here in Wetnam...she is washed up and hang dry in wetnam with no prospective bridegroom....here in wetnam if gals are not married before 23 yrs old they are left hanging to be hooked by foreigners....furthermore she can cried sob stories father sick or in debt due to gambling...to me I am immuned because heard too many similar stories...that also not my problem ma...always pay WL f**k and forget...no feelings or emotions involved...

passport can always made new...just declared lost...so what if she nvr been overseas...the fact now she is WL...and you believed nvr been to sinkie land can have bfs msg her whole nite...you may wonder how many she has...dun be surprised she has a few up to 5 bfs feeding her monthly...hahah....only fools will trust WL...

now you are a clone...so your stories are made up or maybe true...you have no guts to face us with your trueself...^^

the above is my own personal opinion...
__________________
<a href=https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg target=_blank rel=nofollow>https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg</a>

Info threads are for field reports...if you want to chat post in tcss thread
Please do not post when you PM somebody
Please Do Not reply long post, always edit...
may zap and remove post

  #19518  
Old 06-05-2014, 05:09 PM
Hurricane88's Avatar
Hurricane88 Hurricane88 is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: International Forum
Posts: 23,625
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 40175 / Power: 32
Hurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
bro mariosuper, I also have similar experience with this ktv viet, i.e. on one hand they KC you, yet at the same time they have bigger fish to entertain, yet yet they still got the cheek to ask things from you. And they don't mind letting you know which are the other big catch they have ... what mindset is that

I will ask back her.. so what am I if you are already somebody else mistress or darling? ... what is the purpose of me to buy you expensive gift like burberry bag (wait long long)...
one word...greedy...
__________________
<a href=https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg target=_blank rel=nofollow>https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg</a>

Info threads are for field reports...if you want to chat post in tcss thread
Please do not post when you PM somebody
Please Do Not reply long post, always edit...
may zap and remove post

  #19519  
Old 06-05-2014, 07:25 PM
mariosuper's Avatar
mariosuper mariosuper is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 675 / Power: 11
mariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to behold
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane88 View Post
first of all thank you for writing your story...nothing special because so many similar cases discussed here in the past if you can search this thread...

quote naemlo "always think your gal is different from other WL..."...to me is no diff and she is never as innocent as she looks...look she is screwing others behind her bf who is feeding her $$$...

late 20's is no no here in Wetnam...she is washed up and hang dry in wetnam with no prospective bridegroom....here in wetnam if gals are not married before 23 yrs old they are left hanging to be hooked by foreigners....furthermore she can cried sob stories father sick or in debt due to gambling...to me I am immuned because heard too many similar stories...that also not my problem ma...always pay WL f**k and forget...no feelings or emotions involved...

passport can always made new...just declared lost...so what if she nvr been overseas...the fact now she is WL...and you believed nvr been to sinkie land can have bfs msg her whole nite...you may wonder how many she has...dun be surprised she has a few up to 5 bfs feeding her monthly...hahah....only fools will trust WL...

now you are a clone...so your stories are made up or maybe true...you have no guts to face us with your trueself...^^

the above is my own personal opinion...

story is true, but i omit many detail just in case the boyfriend see this thread la, small world ma u never know, and double protection use a clone account better, nowadays CSI very strong later trace back to me jialat.

didn't know that 23 is consider old leh, thanks for enlightening! i also more or less immuned to these story, kana KC by a china WL before and paid my tuition fees before, so more or less "shielded" from these drama. i do agree with always paying market price for their services, to reduce any guilt feeling when trying to avoid their KC trap. but then again i try to maintain good relationship with WL i like, so have more GFE for future session, im a sucker for GFE la.

in any case, try to shield feeling from all this girls. play is play, life is life. for myself, i try to spread my attention to a few girls, so in any case won't tiao 1 girl so badly.
  #19520  
Old 06-05-2014, 07:28 PM
mariosuper's Avatar
mariosuper mariosuper is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 675 / Power: 11
mariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to behold
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by volcano View Post
i always believe that not all WLs are bad n not trustworthy...

but what do u expect from a WL that is willing to spread legs to any guys for money.
i wan to believe not all WLs are bad also leh. but hard la.
as i mention, this girls is consider the "inncocent" range already, still like that. maybe 张无忌mother is right after all.

不要相信女人的话,越是漂亮的女人 她的话就越不能相信!

  #19521  
Old 06-05-2014, 07:29 PM
mariosuper's Avatar
mariosuper mariosuper is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 675 / Power: 11
mariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to beholdmariosuper is a splendid one to behold
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
bro mariosuper, I also have similar experience with this ktv viet, i.e. on one hand they KC you, yet at the same time they have bigger fish to entertain, yet yet they still got the cheek to ask things from you. And they don't mind letting you know which are the other big catch they have ... what mindset is that

I will ask back her.. so what am I if you are already somebody else mistress or darling? ... what is the purpose of me to buy you expensive gift like burberry bag (wait long long)...
if they give good service just play along but don't sink lor. jiayou!
  #19522  
Old 07-05-2014, 12:41 AM
jackbl's Avatar
jackbl jackbl is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hóc Môn
Posts: 11,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 11601 / Power: 24
jackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond reputejackbl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by volcano View Post
i always believe that not all WLs are bad n not trustworthy...
I also feel the same as you
__________________
Latest Translation updates: https://sbf.net.nz/showpost.php?p=60...postcount=7985

2014 - 27yo and above
Min 10 points to exchange
  #19523  
Old 07-05-2014, 12:52 AM
mutantchicken mutantchicken is offline
Samster (B)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: saigon
Posts: 1,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 1053 / Power: 0
mutantchicken has much to be proud ofmutantchicken has much to be proud ofmutantchicken has much to be proud ofmutantchicken has much to be proud ofmutantchicken has much to be proud ofmutantchicken has much to be proud ofmutantchicken has much to be proud ofmutantchicken has much to be proud of
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbl View Post
I also feel the same as you
Quote:
Originally Posted by volcano View Post
i always believe that not all WLs are bad n not trustworthy...

but what do u expect from a WL that is willing to spread legs to any guys for money.
yes they are only as untrustworthy as the man is stupid, the smart men find or know how to manage her so she is trust worthy, the stupid men shut both eyes and open both ears then when she is found out to be untrue then claim she un trustworthy...in life you are tricked when u allow people to trick you
  #19524  
Old 07-05-2014, 01:01 AM
naemlo's Avatar
naemlo naemlo is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 9009 / Power: 25
naemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond reputenaemlo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane88 View Post
quote naemlo "always think your gal is different from other WL..."...to me is no diff and she is never as innocent as she looks...look she is screwing others behind her bf who is feeding her $$$...
Hehhehe thanks for using my quote...

Guess it is easier or save the effort for u or us to stop telling these ppl that all WL are no difference.... let them face the shit.

We should continue with our semi retire mode... tour around Vietnam, eat, sleep n bonk. Frankly, nowsadays I dun bother how samsters deal with WL. They die or survive, I dun benefit. Tons of info in the forum, if they too lazy then good luck. Live my own life....
__________________
Ma sao khong the tha thu cho nhau mot lan
  #19525  
Old 07-05-2014, 04:15 AM
MIFAcafe's Avatar
MIFAcafe MIFAcafe is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NAM
Posts: 1,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 820 / Power: 12
MIFAcafe is a splendid one to beholdMIFAcafe is a splendid one to beholdMIFAcafe is a splendid one to beholdMIFAcafe is a splendid one to beholdMIFAcafe is a splendid one to beholdMIFAcafe is a splendid one to beholdMIFAcafe is a splendid one to behold
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

I wonder why newbie cannot read at least the first 300 pages of this tread before posting a question which already been answered over and over again.

It is true that VN beauty really match the beauty of the people. Now I focus on touring VN, with or without VBs.

WL will now be out of my list of "want" and former experience with some of them is enough to make me treat them as who they really are. Like boss always say..."whores are for fucking, not for loving."

There are so many girls in Vietnam, but sinkees choose to love those WLs. One day when they get screwed, they can only blamed themselves.

The longer I tour VN, the more I believe....

If you want a VB as your lifepartner, you need to find them in Vietnam.
What you find in Singapore are only rock and pebble, the diamonds are in Vietnam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naemlo View Post
Hehhehe thanks for using my quote...

Guess it is easier or save the effort for u or us to stop telling these ppl that all WL are no difference.... let them face the shit.

We should continue with our semi retire mode... tour around Vietnam, eat, sleep n bonk. Frankly, nowsadays I dun bother how samsters deal with WL. They die or survive, I dun benefit. Tons of info in the forum, if they too lazy then good luck. Live my own life....
__________________
( Click to show/hide )
越南女人本性>>贱男见招拆招大法
吵架时:口硬心软 >>你假装:以和为贵
缺钱时:鬼话连篇 >>你假装:山穷水尽
在家时:忠信孝悌 >>你出去:游戏人间
想你时:泪流满面 >>你假装:怜香惜玉
爱你时:相敬如宾 >>你享受:天天上床
恨你时:过河拆桥 >>你马上:另结新欢

以其人之道,还治其人之身
  #19526  
Old 07-05-2014, 05:58 AM
Hurricane88's Avatar
Hurricane88 Hurricane88 is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: International Forum
Posts: 23,625
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 40175 / Power: 32
Hurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariosuper View Post
i wan to believe not all WLs are bad also leh. but hard la.
as i mention, this girls is consider the "inncocent" range already, still like that. maybe 张无忌mother is right after all.

不要相信女人的话,越是漂亮的女人 她的话就越不能相信!

if you trust WL then pigs can climb trees...
__________________
<a href=https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg target=_blank rel=nofollow>https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg</a>

Info threads are for field reports...if you want to chat post in tcss thread
Please do not post when you PM somebody
Please Do Not reply long post, always edit...
may zap and remove post

  #19527  
Old 07-05-2014, 06:04 AM
Hurricane88's Avatar
Hurricane88 Hurricane88 is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: International Forum
Posts: 23,625
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 40175 / Power: 32
Hurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by naemlo View Post
Hehhehe thanks for using my quote...

Guess it is easier or save the effort for u or us to stop telling these ppl that all WL are no difference.... let them face the shit.

We should continue with our semi retire mode... tour around Vietnam, eat, sleep n bonk. Frankly, nowsadays I dun bother how samsters deal with WL. They die or survive, I dun benefit. Tons of info in the forum, if they too lazy then good luck. Live my own life....
very true...was thinking...why bother to reply then again...being replying for so many years...

my touring Wetnam has enlightening me so much...plenty of really nice places to switch off when I dun want to be contacted..

i saw in Chau Doc An Giang, 1.5hrs from Cambodia border...the trade with Cambodia was fast and furious...Chau Doc became the economic center of An Giang Province...learn fromt he locals they imported watches, crocodile skins...etc...this is off-topic here....kkk...
__________________
<a href=https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg target=_blank rel=nofollow>https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg</a>

Info threads are for field reports...if you want to chat post in tcss thread
Please do not post when you PM somebody
Please Do Not reply long post, always edit...
may zap and remove post

  #19528  
Old 07-05-2014, 06:12 AM
Hurricane88's Avatar
Hurricane88 Hurricane88 is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: International Forum
Posts: 23,625
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 40175 / Power: 32
Hurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond reputeHurricane88 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIFAcafe View Post
WL will now be out of my list of "want" and former experience with some of them is enough to make me treat them as who they really are. Like boss always say..."whores are for fucking, not for loving."

There are so many girls in Vietnam, but sinkees choose to love those WLs. One day when they get screwed, they can only blamed themselves.

The longer I tour VN, the more I believe....

If you want a VB as your lifepartner, you need to find them in Vietnam.
What you find in Singapore are only rock and pebble, the diamonds are in Vietnam.
we share plenty of similar views....just that ppl who dun come to the SOURCE still think they can get decent Viet gals in sinkie entertainment...a gal telling men she has a few bfs and yet like him to screw her nice and good...hahah....

now we can start to go out of hcm to enjoy because ultimately hcm supply are also from outside sources...

I was in Can Tho...the locals themselves toured the floating market...during the long weekend last week public holiday in Vietnam...young couples holding hands and staying at hotels to tour Can Tho...no such thing as ugly men worried no wife/gf...can see some starts from as young as 14 onwards...so before these gals reach foreigners..they may had been screwed and used repeatedly...
__________________
<a href=https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg target=_blank rel=nofollow>https://images.sbf.net.nz/img/248145.jpg</a>

Info threads are for field reports...if you want to chat post in tcss thread
Please do not post when you PM somebody
Please Do Not reply long post, always edit...
may zap and remove post

  #19529  
Old 07-05-2014, 07:29 AM
KangTuo's Avatar
KangTuo KangTuo is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 13,340
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 3021 / Power: 20
KangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbl View Post
I also feel the same as you
If you can handle them, no fear
  #19530  
Old 07-05-2014, 07:39 AM
KangTuo's Avatar
KangTuo KangTuo is offline
Samster
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 13,340
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
My Reputation: Points: 3021 / Power: 20
KangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond reputeKangTuo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Understanding Vietnamese Life Partner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane88 View Post
if you trust WL then pigs can climb trees...
Some can be trusted ... They need to be trained and teached with patience.
It took me 6 mths to coax my number 2 to confess to me and to behave

Winning a gal's (WL, vb, prc, pinoy etc) heart is through patience and understanding them... Then attack their weakess spot.
Advert Space Available
Bypass censorship with https://1.1.1.1

Cloudflare 1.1.1.1
Reply



Bookmarks

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +8. The time now is 05:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copywrong © Samuel Leong 2006 ~ 2025 ph